Sunday, February 24, 2008

The OOP Call-Check/Call-Shove.... What Does It Mean??

A common situation came up yesterday evening, this was in a $10 rebuy at Party Poker. We are down to 47 (approx) with just 20 being paid.

This hand is an example of something that seems to come up a lot. Wanted to have a look here and see if there are any clues away from the table. This is just one example - seems to happen many times with slightly different variations!

To give you a little background the table is generally weak and I have raised a few pots lately to around 2.5x pre flop and taken them down.

Seat 1: PLANET GONG! ( 49,808 )
Seat 2: EBM88 ( 28,319 )
Seat 3: squashrob ( 35,406 )
Seat 4: lOlTuRbAn ( 13,510 )
Seat 5: cokeanyone ( 16,975 )
Seat 6: wallys2 ( 20,675 )
Seat 7: dagsaa ( 37,575 )
Seat 8: MrPoach ( 24,895 ) (BB)
Seat 9: GotName0815 ( 13,121 ) (UTG)
Seat 10: Gurthur ( 43,245 )

Blinds are 600 / 1200 with a 50 ante. Folds to me in the early mid position and I raise to 3000 chips with JJ... intention is to shove over any re-raise behind.

The BB flat calls, everyone else folds.

Flop comes down 9c, Ah, 7s and BB checks to me...

Well the pot is now just over 7,000. My thought here is that he either has an ace (in which case he probably goes all the way) or missed completely... figure a standard c-bet on the smaller side is in order since if he has an ace and shoves me then I'll save a few chips!

So, I bet 3600 and the BB flat-calls again.

Turn comes a very safe looking 4c.... BB insta-shoves his remaining 18k!

This type of situation comes up a lot in the lower level MTTs at least... personally I can never decide what your average player is doing this with - it just does not make sense for any of the likely holdings, it is the check / call / shove line that seems nonsensical!

- If he had a very strong hand (set / tptk / 2 pairs) then the check + call makes sense, but why shove the 'safe' turn (after all I'm not calling without at least a decent ace very often here)
- If he was weak then why build the pot with the check / call?
- An underpair might call pre-flop and now is either scared of the ace or has a set... but the line makes no sense for either.
- 4-4 or A-4 make sense in later betting, but pre-flop A-4 is unlikely to have called (hang on though - this is Party we are writing about!), and 4-4 is unlikely to have called the flop c-bet.

Well, makes no sense for any hand to me! Hopefully the collective minds of Plan3t Gong visitors have some ideas for this type of situation and can answer that perennial poker puzzler:

What the %^&* does the OOP - Call, Check / Call. Shove line mean??!?!?

GL at the tables, Mark

PS: I folded my Jacks... figured my stack was plenty big enough to pick better spots where I am clearer on the situation.


Littleacornman said...

I'd probably read that for some kind of weaker Ace depending on his previous play.

I don't play many mtt's but in a turbo sng I'd take a different line post flop and bet just over 4k there ( or perhaps even slightly more) to make it clear to him that "I have the Ace and I like that flop".If he then shoves on the turn it then seems more obvious to me that he is indeed strong and it would be easier to fold a hand like JJ.

Drarr said...

Geez on Party it could be anything... Maybe a flush draw with a raggy AcXc or something like 76c.

Some people just don't like to give up any chips they have in the pot and might decide to defend with all sorts. K9 might look like a premium to some here, he doesn't you have an A, a safe cad has now come on the turn and he doesn't want to see any more overs.

I guess without reads it's just a guessing game, but what makes perfect sense to one player can completley baffle another based on experiance, knowledge and read of the situation. If everybody played "perfectly" the games would be far tougher!

Mark said...

Cheers for those thoughts gents... agree that the larger cBet might have worked out and also that calling here would be a 'gamble' as it is hard to put a party poker shover on a hand!!

Cheers. Mark